What are ‘bath salts’ and are they bringing on a zombie apocalypse? Of course not, but join Scientific American blogger Cassie Rodenberg at noon EDT today (Wednesday, June 13) to discuss the chemistry of this new class of recreational drugs and why it has been associated recently with unusual forms of violence.
CHAT TRANSCRIPT
Robin Lloyd Welcome everyone to our 30-minute live chat today with Scientific American blogger Cassie Rodenberg.
I’m Robin Lloyd, news editor at Scientific American and I’ll host this 30 min. chat today.
We will be discussing ‘bath salts’ and the ‘zombie’ attacks, and whether there is any good science on this subject. Obviously, zombies don’t exist, but let’s get into the chemistry and truth behind these latest incidents of apparently drug-induced violence. Our guest today is Cassie Rodenberg. Cassie is an Interactive TV Producer in New York City, a writer & former chemist. Follow her on Twitter @cassierodenberg. Here is her blog: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/white-noise/.
So let’s get started. Cassie, could you start by explaining to everyone what bath salts are?
Cassie Rodenberg Hi everyone!
Matt Wilson Hi Cassie!
davidkroll Glad to be here. I’ve done a little writing on compounds in bath salts and synthetic marijuana.
Cassie Rodenberg Bath salts are the street name for a class of recreational drugs, that are synthetic and in the amphetamine and cathinone classes.
Robin Lloyd So it’s not just one drug, but there are a variety of substances?
Cassie Rodenberg They’re often marketed as things like ‘Ivory Wave’ and were initially called bath salts to get around FDA regulations. They stimulate the central nervous system and often cause feelings of euphoria and alertness.
BoraZ I am interested in branding - where does the term come from, who uses it and why,
and should we use ‘bath salts’ when writing about it? Does it ‘soften’ the impact?
Cassie Rodenberg It’s branded ‘bath salts’ because marketers can claim it’s ’not for human consumption’ and ‘for novelty use only’.
davidkroll Re Cassie’s point, products with the chemical(s) in bath salts were also advertised as plant fertilizer for a time. Also marketed as incense, cleaning products, etc.
mdichristina Cassie, David: Why are we all suddenly hearing about ‘bath salts’? What happened?
Cassie Rodenberg It got big as a European club drug, because it’s a relatively cheap stimulant alternative, and one that escaped under police radar. Bath salts are a nickname for a synthetic drug that has recently acquired a lot of media attention.
Kelly Brennan In Schuylkill County PA, they were also sold as ‘jewelry cleaner’ for a little while.
BoraZ So it’s a ‘wink-wink’ way for dealers and users to be in the know, bypassing other’s watchful eyes!
anatoliafergus I heard that a few companies, like Costco, recently pulled their Epson salts thinking they are the same thing.
Rushil Fernandes
Okay, I have a couple of questions. When you say ‘bath Salts’ are you talking about actual bath salts, or is it a euphemism for a new drug? Second, let’s have some references please. How does it do what it does and how nasty (or not) is it? TorovenEmasu So ‘Bath Salts’ exist as a clever marketing ploy to bring a controlled substance to the marketplace?
Cassie Rodenberg @Toroven – Yes, this was a sneaky marketing tactic. davidkroll No, Rushil - it’s not a euphemism. Yes, Toroven, exactly.
davidkroll Bora, the term I often see is ’legal highs’ although many of the chemicals are no longer legal.
BoraZ So, how does one tell the kids about these drugs without making them sound harmless and appealing?
Cassie Rodenberg That’s the trick- nicknaming drugs not only makes them sound harmless, but also opens the window for kids to dive under their mom’s medicine cabinet to try her ACTUAL bath salts, not the drug.
Rushil Fernandes Okay, seems to me that this is an American phenomenon. Let’s hope it doesn’t get to India. Bye folks!
Robin Lloyd Shaun Kallis on FB: Chances are high that Bath Salts or MDPV, a dopamine re-uptake inhibitor, was not the drug responsible for face attack.
Cassie Rodenberg Right now, it’s hard to determine the drugs involved in the ‘face attack’ without a toxicology screening.
davidkroll The officer in the Miami case shouldn’t have even speculated on bath salts. Misleading.
Cassie Rodenberg We can say what may or may not be likely, but above all, it’s important to note that drugs do not necessarily cause violence. Often pre-existing mental illnesses are at play. Drugs can augment pre-existing mental illness, but violent behavior usually does not start with a drug. People with schizophrenia, for example, have a much higher likelihood of violence without the addition of drugs
Cassie Rodenberg @anatolia, I think the street name has caused a general fear for a commonplace household item, which is a shame
ArthurShuey One can smoke, snort, eat or inject bath salts, right? And the effect level is different with different means of use, so injection is more potent than smoking?
Cassie Rodenberg @Arthur, with most drugs, injection is more potent and a faster delivery system.
davidkroll Always best to wait for the toxicology report. But this horrifying case may have the effect that Bora suggests may create an aversion to bath salts use among young people.
Cassie Rodenberg @david – I agree. we know too little at this point. It’s a good platform to discuss hyping and blaming of drugs
Robin Kellner Are bath salts ’the drug’ addictive?
Cassie Rodenberg @Robin, there’s little science that’s been done, however, since the drug is a cathinone, I would say the potential for abuse is there. Stimulants cause subjectively different reactions on users.
davidkroll Cassie, in all of your recent interviews with substance abusers, have you talked much with folks using bath salts?
Cassie Rodenberg @david, no, I have not. I think the media has hyped the notion of rampant bath salt use
TorovenEmasu Another case of uninformed speculation causing a stir of paranoia… Is ‘bath salts’ a street name, or a merchandising name?
Cassie Rodenberg @Toroven, ‘bath salts’ is a street name, along with things like ‘White Lightning,’ ‘Hurricane Charlie’ and ‘Vanilla Sky’.
Robin Lloyd So there reallyisn’t an increase in the public’s use of ‘bath salts’? Cassie Rodenberg Bath salts seem to be the hip-to-talk-about drug of the moment, but they don’t deserve to be criminalized more than any other drug.
TorovenEmasu I always feel regulating something is better than illegalizing. Straight up illegalization only creates criminals.
Robin Lloyd Cassie what do you think of Bora’s q: So, how does one tell the kids about these drugs without making them sound harmless and appealing?
Cassie Rodenberg They were classified as a Schedule 1 illegal substance back in October, so it’s likely that another chemical form will enter the market. This is what happens with most synthetic drugs. they have short life spans because they’re made illegal. I think educators should call these what they are–stimulants, and discuss them along with cocaine and methamphetamine. Perpetuating names like ‘Hurricane Charlie’ only makes them sound more cool and alluring.
Kelly Brennan So what about the makeup of the drugs makes people go crazy? I’ve experienced people who were using and literally were acting psychotic.
David Kroll Chemically, Cassie, isn’t a bigger concern the possibility of toxic intermediates in the products from shoddy syntheses?
Cassie Rodenberg @david, absolutely. There are larger toxic dangers in the creation of these substances that could be promoted.
Cassie Rodenberg I think discussing how they’re marketed is a good thing, but to always call them what they chemically are is important.
Robin Lloyd OK folks, thanks for participating. I have to shut this chat down in the next minute. Feel free to follow-up with Cassie on Twitter. @cassierodenberg
Robin Lloyd Thanks, Cassie!
Cassie Rodenberg Thanks all!
CHAT TRANSCRIPT
Robin Lloyd Welcome everyone to our 30-minute live chat today with Scientific American blogger Cassie Rodenberg.
I’m Robin Lloyd, news editor at Scientific American and I’ll host this 30 min. chat today.
We will be discussing ‘bath salts’ and the ‘zombie’ attacks, and whether there is any good science on this subject. Obviously, zombies don’t exist, but let’s get into the chemistry and truth behind these latest incidents of apparently drug-induced violence. Our guest today is Cassie Rodenberg. Cassie is an Interactive TV Producer in New York City, a writer & former chemist. Follow her on Twitter @cassierodenberg. Here is her blog: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/white-noise/.
So let’s get started. Cassie, could you start by explaining to everyone what bath salts are?
Cassie Rodenberg Hi everyone!
Matt Wilson Hi Cassie!
davidkroll Glad to be here. I’ve done a little writing on compounds in bath salts and synthetic marijuana.
Cassie Rodenberg Bath salts are the street name for a class of recreational drugs, that are synthetic and in the amphetamine and cathinone classes.
Robin Lloyd So it’s not just one drug, but there are a variety of substances?
Cassie Rodenberg They’re often marketed as things like ‘Ivory Wave’ and were initially called bath salts to get around FDA regulations. They stimulate the central nervous system and often cause feelings of euphoria and alertness.
BoraZ I am interested in branding - where does the term come from, who uses it and why,
and should we use ‘bath salts’ when writing about it? Does it ‘soften’ the impact?
Cassie Rodenberg It’s branded ‘bath salts’ because marketers can claim it’s ’not for human consumption’ and ‘for novelty use only’.
davidkroll Re Cassie’s point, products with the chemical(s) in bath salts were also advertised as plant fertilizer for a time. Also marketed as incense, cleaning products, etc.
mdichristina Cassie, David: Why are we all suddenly hearing about ‘bath salts’? What happened?
Cassie Rodenberg It got big as a European club drug, because it’s a relatively cheap stimulant alternative, and one that escaped under police radar. Bath salts are a nickname for a synthetic drug that has recently acquired a lot of media attention.
Kelly Brennan In Schuylkill County PA, they were also sold as ‘jewelry cleaner’ for a little while.
BoraZ So it’s a ‘wink-wink’ way for dealers and users to be in the know, bypassing other’s watchful eyes!
anatoliafergus I heard that a few companies, like Costco, recently pulled their Epson salts thinking they are the same thing.
Rushil Fernandes
Okay, I have a couple of questions. When you say ‘bath Salts’ are you talking about actual bath salts, or is it a euphemism for a new drug? Second, let’s have some references please. How does it do what it does and how nasty (or not) is it?
Cassie Rodenberg @Toroven – Yes, this was a sneaky marketing tactic. davidkroll No, Rushil - it’s not a euphemism. Yes, Toroven, exactly.
davidkroll Bora, the term I often see is ’legal highs’ although many of the chemicals are no longer legal.
BoraZ So, how does one tell the kids about these drugs without making them sound harmless and appealing?
Cassie Rodenberg That’s the trick- nicknaming drugs not only makes them sound harmless, but also opens the window for kids to dive under their mom’s medicine cabinet to try her ACTUAL bath salts, not the drug.
Rushil Fernandes Okay, seems to me that this is an American phenomenon. Let’s hope it doesn’t get to India. Bye folks!
Robin Lloyd Shaun Kallis on FB: Chances are high that Bath Salts or MDPV, a dopamine re-uptake inhibitor, was not the drug responsible for face attack.
Cassie Rodenberg Right now, it’s hard to determine the drugs involved in the ‘face attack’ without a toxicology screening.
davidkroll The officer in the Miami case shouldn’t have even speculated on bath salts. Misleading.
Cassie Rodenberg We can say what may or may not be likely, but above all, it’s important to note that drugs do not necessarily cause violence. Often pre-existing mental illnesses are at play. Drugs can augment pre-existing mental illness, but violent behavior usually does not start with a drug. People with schizophrenia, for example, have a much higher likelihood of violence without the addition of drugs
Cassie Rodenberg @anatolia, I think the street name has caused a general fear for a commonplace household item, which is a shame
ArthurShuey One can smoke, snort, eat or inject bath salts, right? And the effect level is different with different means of use, so injection is more potent than smoking?
Cassie Rodenberg @Arthur, with most drugs, injection is more potent and a faster delivery system.
davidkroll Always best to wait for the toxicology report. But this horrifying case may have the effect that Bora suggests may create an aversion to bath salts use among young people.
Cassie Rodenberg @david – I agree. we know too little at this point. It’s a good platform to discuss hyping and blaming of drugs
Robin Kellner Are bath salts ’the drug’ addictive?
Cassie Rodenberg @Robin, there’s little science that’s been done, however, since the drug is a cathinone, I would say the potential for abuse is there. Stimulants cause subjectively different reactions on users.
davidkroll Cassie, in all of your recent interviews with substance abusers, have you talked much with folks using bath salts?
Cassie Rodenberg @david, no, I have not. I think the media has hyped the notion of rampant bath salt use
TorovenEmasu Another case of uninformed speculation causing a stir of paranoia… Is ‘bath salts’ a street name, or a merchandising name?
Cassie Rodenberg @Toroven, ‘bath salts’ is a street name, along with things like ‘White Lightning,’ ‘Hurricane Charlie’ and ‘Vanilla Sky’.
Robin Lloyd So there reallyisn’t an increase in the public’s use of ‘bath salts’?
TorovenEmasu I always feel regulating something is better than illegalizing. Straight up illegalization only creates criminals.
Robin Lloyd Cassie what do you think of Bora’s q: So, how does one tell the kids about these drugs without making them sound harmless and appealing?
Cassie Rodenberg They were classified as a Schedule 1 illegal substance back in October, so it’s likely that another chemical form will enter the market. This is what happens with most synthetic drugs. they have short life spans because they’re made illegal. I think educators should call these what they are–stimulants, and discuss them along with cocaine and methamphetamine. Perpetuating names like ‘Hurricane Charlie’ only makes them sound more cool and alluring.
Kelly Brennan So what about the makeup of the drugs makes people go crazy? I’ve experienced people who were using and literally were acting psychotic.
David Kroll Chemically, Cassie, isn’t a bigger concern the possibility of toxic intermediates in the products from shoddy syntheses?
Cassie Rodenberg @david, absolutely. There are larger toxic dangers in the creation of these substances that could be promoted.
Cassie Rodenberg I think discussing how they’re marketed is a good thing, but to always call them what they chemically are is important.
Robin Lloyd OK folks, thanks for participating. I have to shut this chat down in the next minute. Feel free to follow-up with Cassie on Twitter. @cassierodenberg
Robin Lloyd Thanks, Cassie!
Cassie Rodenberg Thanks all!
